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Un ordre pour les parajuristes?
Jean-francois Parent
2017-10-18 11:15:00
Les travailleurs de l'ombre du milieu juridique veulent se professionnaliser. Le boss des parajuristes nous explique pourquoi...
Nous en avons discuté avec le président de l'Association canadienne des parajuristes, Marc-André De Sève.
Droit-Inc : Pourquoi un ordre professionnel?
Marc-André De Sève : On veut permettre une meilleure accessibilité à la justice. Alors que les parajuristes prennent de plus en plus d'importance à plusieurs égards, il y a plusieurs actes qui pourraient être accomplis par des parajuristes : la rédaction de documents, la représentation dans les causes administratives ou aux petites créances sont quelques-uns des exemples où nous jouons déjà ou pouvons jouer un rôle plus important.
On veut également que la pratique soit encadrée. Ainsi, tous ceux qui font appel à des parajuristes, et ils sont nombreux—des avocats aux arpenteurs-géomètres en passant par les greffes municipaux et les assureurs—sachent qu'ils font affaire avec des professionnels qualifiés, bien formés et compétents.
Ce serait la garantie que des formations continues sont dispensées, que les connaissances de base soient les mêmes pour tout le monde.
Des exemples venus d'ailleurs?
En Ontario, on a déjà franchi ce pas : les parajuristes fournissent des services juridiques concernant les tribunaux administratifs, les infractions à la législation provinciale, comme les infractions routières, les affaires mineures visées par le Code pénal et les petites créances.
Un ordre est voué à la protection du public. En quoi le public a-t-il besoin de protection?
Il y a des cas documentés où le bien du public n'a pas été bien protégé. On pense par exemple aux parajuristes, dans les Panama Papers, qui ont signé des documents servant à l'évasion fiscale ou qui ont servi de prête-noms selon les ordres de leurs patrons, sans trop oser poser de questions par peur de perdre leur emploi.
Un membre d'un ordre professionnel aurait pu refuser de signer de tels documents en invoquant sa déontologie.
Ensuite, les parajuristes sont des professionnels qui posent des actes spécialisés.
Cependant, dans le contexte actuel, il n'y a pas de contraintes pour l'entrée en carrière, on n'a donc pas de moyen de mesurer les compétences ou de contingenter l'accès. Comme les hygiénistes dentaires ou les infirmières, qui appliquent les directives d'un professionnel, le public doit pouvoir compter sur le fait que les parajuristes avec qui ils font affaire font de même.
Quels seraient les avantages pour les avocats?
Nous ne voulons pas poser des actes réservés aux avocats, nous faisons plutôt valoir que ce que nous faisons exigent des compétences et des connaissances précises qui, si elles sont reconnues et encadrées, les aideront.
Par exemple, nous intervenons de plus en plus dans les dossiers : beaucoup du travail fait en cabinet en droit commercial, notamment, est l'oeuvre de parajuristes. Sauf qu'il faut que ce soit approuvé par des avocats. Cela coûte cher aux clients. En faisant affaire avec des professionnels, aux qualifications avérées, on réduit d'autant la facture.
Nous disons aux avocats que nous n'avons pas besoin d'être supervisés pour rédiger, nous savons comment le faire et nous sommes compétents pour le faire.
La plupart sont allés à l'université pour apprendre le droit.
Aussi, la complexité des dossiers juridiques exige de plus en plus de connaissances : la réglementation, l'internationalisation, la concurrence entre les bureaux, tout cela fait en sorte que les parajuristes sont un maillon indispensable de la chaîne juridique.
Enfin, on peut penser aux entrepreneurs : un avocat qui ouvre son bureau et qui s'associe à un parajuriste plutôt qu'à un avocat réduit ses coûts.
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Anonyme
il y a 7 ansNe confondez pas les parajuristes qui font du "corpo" ou un autre genre de travail répétitif à haut volume dans des "grands cabinets" ou dans des études de notaire, qui constituent la minorité où on retrouve la majorité des parajuristes compétents, avec les autres parajuristes, dont les "compétences" sont épeurantes.
Anonyme
il y a 7 ansQue voulez-vous dire par "épeurantes"?
DSG
il y a 7 ansI don't want to be too critical because I do appreciate the work performed by those women. But if they think that they can actually draft binding legal documents and make representations in administrative or small claims courts, they're dreaming big time. They have absolutely no idea of the academic background required to perform those functions and the Barreau will never allow this to happen. Form a social club or something because this is not happening.
Anonyme
il y a 7 ansThese women (and men, by the way...) already draft binding legal documents. What required "academic background" are you talking about? Most of business law skills are learned on the field.
Finally, drafting contracts is not an act exclusive to lawyers according to the An Act Respecting the Barreau du Québec.
Anonyme
il y a 7 ansFirstly, that archaic statement of "appreciate the work performed by those women" is highly flawed as the paralegal profession has seen a significant influx of males in recent years.
In certain circumstances, paralegals already represent certain companies in small claims court, as well as draft binding agreements, all within and under the supervision of an attorney.
The point of obtaining a professional order is to simply guarantee the lawyers to whom paralegals offer their services to, that the paralegals they hire are both competent and educated. The order will draw up strict guidelines that paralegals have to follow in order to receive the designation of being a paralegal, both on the educational level and obligatory continuing education throughout their respective careers.
Note that many paralegals also hold various university-level degrees in other fields, but due to the lack of jobs thereof in their respective fields, they went back to school to obtain their paralegal degree. Many lawyers hold simply a bachelor's degree in law, passed their bar exam and follow the minimum requirement of continuing education every 2 years. There is certainly nothing wrong with that, however, the "academic background" arguement can be viewed as minimal at best.
DSG
il y a 7 ansYou want to draft contracts? If I gave you a couple of elemental legal terms such as "ab initio" and "animus contrahendi" you chicks would think that I was giving you ingredients to bake a cake. There's no way paralegals can write contracts.
DSG
il y a 7 ansIt makes sense now. Some paralegals received law degrees, were unable to cut it as lawyers and became paralegals instead and they now what to exercise the functions of lawyers. Ok then. According to that logic my veterinarian can perform heart surgery on a human.
Incidentally, I tend to forget that some paralegals are also men. Most people I know don't hire paralegals unless they are also nice to look at. It's like having an aquarium in the office. If you went to that expense might as well get exotic fish.
Anonyme
il y a 7 ansThere is an abundant amount of lawyers who would profusely disagree with your statement .
You clearly do not know the capabilities of paralegals, or you underutilize them immensely.
Anonyme
il y a 7 ansDSG, a veterinarian doesn't have the technology or the steady hand to pull off a procedure like that, so HA!
Aanonyme
il y a 7 ansThere can be an abundant amount of case law, but there can only be an abundant *number* of lawyers. Amount for things you can't count, number for things you can. So: a certain amount of flour for a certain number of loaves of bread.
Concerned Paralegal
il y a 7 ansI am sad to see these type of exchanges in 2017. The Quebec Association of Paralegals (Association des parajuristes du Québec "APQ") has an alternate solution; the creation of a Regulation under the Loi sur le Barreau. The draft regulation has already been submitted to the Ministère de la justice and support has already been expressed by the Barreau du Québec in initial discussions and by many prominent lawyers in Montreal and Quebec City. A regulation vs a professional order would ease any tensions between lawyers and paralegals and the regulation will ensure the integrity of the Paralegal profession and give a recourse to lawyers (and indirectly the public) in the event of malpractice. Regulation is a win/win/win, for lawyers, for paralegals and the public. For more info, you should visit the website www.parajuristequebec.ca
I’m sorry but no
il y a 7 ansIt’s 2017 and that’s precisely why Paralegals need their own order.
Dentists didn’t try to keep Dental hygienists under their thumb. They have their own order.
Doctors didn’t try to stop nurses, either.
Paralegal
il y a 7 ansDental hygienists have physical contact with their patients, Nurses have physical contact with their patients...by law, a professional order is required. Let's compare apples with apples...Paralegals, by law, are supposed to be supervised by Lawyers, therefore, no danger to the public. What a Paralegal should do if they want to have 20 law firms or lawyers as clients is get a professional recognition by regulation under the Barreau. Section 2 and 4 of article 25 of the Act respecting the professional code do not allow the creation of a professional order for paralegals. You would have to change la loi sur le Barreau for that to happen, meaning paralegals would have to have a direct contact with the public without the supervision of lawyers (all Paralegals in Quebec, not just downtown Montreal Paralegals).
You’re not concerned
il y a 7 ansYou’re not concerned at all. You just want to be the one to say you were behind the idea to regulate paralegals. Your ego betrays you. You’ve made it clear whose interest you represent and it is not the Paralegals but rather the big firms and corporate department managers of said major law firms that are against the idea.
DSG is s troll
il y a 7 ansPeople, please don’t feed the troll. DSG is just doing what he does best and consistently, he loves to get a reaction out of people.
I think, we paralegals and the jurists we work with are quite aware of our capacities and limitations. No one asks their paralegals to fetch them their coffee ... except maybe that one boss I worked for briefly.
DSG
il y a 7 ansI never disputed that. My very first sentence was "I don't want to be too critical because I do appreciate the work performed by those women." They handle court proceedings, corporate registries, filings, etc. all of which are very important functions. But the article states that they should also make representations in court and draft documents. They can't do that or anything else that could have legal implications for their clients. Even a seemingly simple corporate resolution can have severe consequences if someone doesn't have profound knowledge of corporate law. Clients would be very uncomfortable signing anything if a lawyer didn't verify it beforehand.
Anonyme
il y a 7 anshahaha
Big firm lawyer here, not in corporate/transactional law.
When I need to address issues that fall within these areas of law, I take care of it myself and ask our corporate paralegals for assistance. I get a better result for a fraction of the fee. Junior lawyers and articling students are not cost efficient in that regard.
Please stop pretending that corporate lawyers have this huge expertise. They rely mostly on precedents and don't really adapt the legal aspects to the transaction. How many Quebec law governed contracts address the issue of consideration when it is not necessary to do so? The former head of the commercial law department did not the answer to a simple question regarding issuance of shares. In fact he referred me to... a paralegal.
Direct-Shift Gearbox
il y a 7 ansI wonder if DSG bills all the time he spends on Droit Inc. to his clients... At least you should do your homework before commenting. Makes me wonder about your skills and if you are a lawyer/lier... Take care my friend and try to get a life instead of being here all the time...
Anonyme
il y a 7 ansIf your estimate of over 7,000 paralegals is accurate, then you do not have the proper represenatation to request a professional order on behalf of all paralegals. Even the teachers had a union representing all teachers before they voted no for a professional order. Get your membership past 3,500 members at the very least before trying to represent all paralegals in Québec.
Legitimately concerned paralegal
il y a 7 ansAPQ has zero legitimacy.
It’s an association started by one guy that convinced a group of well meaning, junior and senior paralegals. Most of the people that started on the board with left the association as soon as they saw what it was, an empty shell with nothing but promises. Furthermore, the association has never had an agm, as well, their mission, members, and board are all either misinterpreted or outright lies. Their self appointed president and board are CAP members. Some of your directors were even previously part of CAP’s board. APQ had its chance to speak, the overwhelming majority of CAP members voted for an order.
APQ organizes events, yet it has never had more than 5 people show up to their events. If APQ truly have members, where are they and why are they not visible? Don’t give me the excuse that the membership list is private. I signed up as a member out of curiosity 3 years ago and I’m still getting membership info and documents and I NEVER RENEWED my membership. If APQ bases its membership numbers on their mailing list alone I have a surprise for the APQ in store.
APQ has zero legitimacy to act for anyone except some of the big firms. They act in their interest and do so by scaring them into believing that somehow an order will make us more expensive employees. What the APQ bases itself on to make such a claim, only it knows.
The president of APQ has been a part of CAP and he knows very well that CAP represents paralegals all across Canada and the vast majority of our members are in Quebec.
The APQ doesn’t understand people, the order will happen regardless of any opposition to it. Any attempt to limit our profession and professional growth will and shall be met with opposition from forward thinking paralegals.
Talk to Paralegals, meet with students, meet with cegeps and talk to people outside of big firms and you’ll learn a lot. It’s a humbling experience, I promise you.
Signed a concerned former member of CAP, APQ and networker.
Senior Paralegal
il y a 7 ansTo: Legitimately concerned paralegal
The APQ started with nothing in 2011, with a membership fee of $25 and a devoted board. If you have ever started anything from scratch, you would understand the achievements the APQ has had on its own. I personally know the president of the APQ and he has done nothing but fight for the rights of paralegals, mentor those that were starting off fresh from school, helping young paralegals find a job. CAP has existed since the 80's, their membership was roughly under 1000 back then and it is roughly a 1000 members 20 years later; there is a reason for that, in the last 5 years, there have been scandals of members of the board paying themselves salaries with membership money of hard working paralegals. Please explain why CAP thinks that a majority of CAP members justifies a professional order for 7,000 paralegals? A professional order only benefits the few board members of CAP that want to open up their own little office or maybe work from home. Consult with all paralegals before trying to decide their fate, if the office des professions has the credibility and intelligence I know it does, it will not allow a professional order to be created by a national association with a few hundred paralegals in Quebec to represent 7,000 paralegals. The APQ is trying to create a regulation to regroup all of the paralegals and then have the 7,000 paralegals decide what to do with our profession.
And please tell me how a former member of CAP knows that the board of the APQ are members of CAP? Is CAP contravening its own ethics code? Divulging information of its members to the public?
Professional Order? You should be acting professional and courteous to your fellow paralegals, we can express our opinions on a professional order or a regulation with a clean debate and not insult one another.
Signed, a loyal member of the APQ.
To the loyal apq member
il y a 7 ansNothing I said was insulting and it’s all truth that is easily verifiable by either a) attending an agm as I did last year when I was still a member and b) looking up the directors of the APQ on their own website.
You are the one making accusations and insinuations re: the alleged payment of cap board members. Again,, cap has an agm and financial statements are voted on by its members at the agm. You can also request a copy to cap and go over them yourself.
CAP’s lack of growth is due to its inability to find members outside of the province of Quebec a fact that is widely known in the industry. It’s core membership has always been in Quebec and its aim to expand outside of Quebec. Again, this is information easily verifiable if you’ve ever been a CAP member and attended their AGM! The fact that some paralegals didn’t vote for or against an order is irrelevant so long as the members of the association voted. CAP informed it’s members and explained clearly that there would be a grandfather clause to include all existing paralegals into the order. You lose nothing by becoming an order in fact you gain legitimacy as a professional and by extension, the creation of an order ensures that future paralegals, you know, the ones going to cegep and getting in debt to obtain a DEC O or an accelerated DEC, don’t incur unnecessary debt and are able to find themselves professionally once they hit the job market.
You are a senior paralegal, you are aware of the vast number of paralegals that are currently employed as paralegals but do not have either a DEC or accelerated DEC, there are countless paralegals that have simply a certificate of law or experience. To these colleagues I say, chapeau, you carved out your place, well done and you deserve the title but this is what was done in the past and it is no longer acceptable for FUTURE PARALEGALS. We paralegals need to make a stand and fight for the juniors that might never get a chance to become paralegals because there is no order and it’s a Wild West where people hire whoever they want as long as they are yes-men and yes-women.
Your argument that CAP can’t represent paralegals in Quebec is flawed because you know APQ has even less members. You have zero legitimacy and zero membership, you do not host continuing education seminars, you do not host lunch and learns, you are not transparent.
Enraged paralegal
il y a 7 ansYou guys (CAP as much as the APQ) are making a mockery of the paralegal profession and making us look like fools. Get your sh*t together, shut up and sit down and WORK TOGETHER.
APQ people: I (nor any of my colleagues) have never seen/heard about you approaching the Ministère de la justice and the Barreau du Québec to propose this regulation so your aforementioned comment is complete bull - you don’t have the best intentions of the paralegal profession at heart or else we would have all been aware of said draft proposal.
Now, I repeat, CAP and APQ, get your shit together because this is embarassing.
Marc-André De Sève
il y a 7 ansEn tant que principal concerné par cet article et à lire les commentaires qui ont suivi, je me dois de commenter et rectifier certaines choses en mon nom personnel et celui de CAP.
Premièrement, j’ai toujours trouvé déplorables les commentaires négatifs des gens (autant contre CAP ou l’APQ) sous le couvert de l’anonymat. Il est évident que notre demande ne pourra pas plaire à tout le monde, surtout ceux et celles qui ne connaissaient même pas ce qu’un parajuriste peut accomplir, ni même sa formation, mais nous espérons que notre demande plaira à la majorité concernée. Chaque individu ou groupe a le droit à son opinion et vouloir les choses autrement et j’ai (nous avons) un total respect avec cette façon de faire et c’est ce qu’on appelle la démocratie.
Nous n’avons pas fait cette demande sur un coup de tête, ni sans avoir consulté une grande partie des parajuristes et des gens du milieu juridique ni sans peser le pour et le contre. Évidemment, il nous a été impossible de parler avec la totalité de la communauté parajuridique, alors nous avons procédé à 2 reprises à un vote auprès de nos membres à savoir s’ils préféraient une demande pour la création d’un ordre professionnel ou d’un règlement, tel que le suggère l’APQ et dont une telle approche infructueuse avait déjà été tentée par CAP dans le passé. Le résultat lors des deux votes était en faveur de la création d’un ordre professionnel. Malgré le fait que les participants ne représentaient pas l’ensemble des parajuristes du Québec, nous avions un assez grand échantillon pour en légitimer le résultat et le transposer à plus grande échelle.
Pour CAP, il est très important de refléter la volonté de la majorité et nous sommes là (tous bénévolement) uniquement pour exprimer leur voix et non pour décider pour les autres. Personnellement, je suis loin de me considérer comme le boss des parajuristes, malgré ce qui est écrit dans l’article. C’est un titre que je ne voudrais jamais m’octroyer et que de toute façon je ne mériterais pas.
Je tiens également à rassurer les parajuristes, que malgré que CAP et l’APQ ont des visions totalement différentes sur le véhicule à utiliser pour la reconnaissance de la profession, que nous avons tout de même des échanges cordiaux entre nous et que nous avons convenu entre nos deux associations que l’important était de mettre de l’avant notre métier sans créer de la bisbille entre parajuristes et ainsi être la risée du milieu. Peu importe le scénario, il y aura des consultations d’un côté comme de l’autre qui permettra à chacun de s’exprimer le moment venu.
Merci
Marc-André De Sève
Président - CAP
Anonyme
il y a 5 ansMerci d'avoir semer l'ordre dans ce chaos d'interprétations.